so a bad guy breaks into the Salon to rob it and she says "wait, i need to go to my car...."

and people, don't put any bumper stickers on your car if you don't want the window broken as gun thiefs are watching.

The problem is, people have a right in Florida to have a holstered or cased loaded hand gun in their vehicle. But, when employers or businesses prohibit the firearm from being brought onto their property they force the driver to either give up their legal right and leave the weapon at home or forgo their employment or doing what may be necessary business. This law does not give concealed weapon license holders the right to bring the weapon into the building, it only assures that they will not be forced to forgo the ability to defend themselves on the way to and from employment or business. Given the areas that some must drive through and the hours that some work the unrightful disarming of a law abiding citizen can easily put them at risk.

Hey Dude...U stole my parking space.

Let me get my here gun and show ya how ticked I am atchya.

WHAT ARE THEY THINKING?

Don't ask, don't tell has been my method of choice for years. With a State CWP, one is legally entitled to carry where they want as long as it doesn't violate State Statute laws. Don't see what all the fuss is about?

so beware, carjackers and other bad guys. it's in my lap. of course it has been for a long time.

i never needed no stinking law.

the problem is it's hard to play defence. the crazys and other preditors have the advantage.

keeping a weapon safe from your loved ones but ready for the bad ones is more difficult than most think.

you cannot get a do-over. you have to live with your decisions. what seems like a good idea today can become a bad idea tomorrow.

Check out the poll.
Conveniently closed to reflect 52% NO OPINIONS to this new law.

NDN is an employer too and probably doesn't like it very much.

As much as I support GUN RIGHTS, this new law doesn't mean too much anyway. Fact is that many people already keep their guns in their glove box anyway. Don't ask. Don't tell.

The new law will probably be overturned in mid July by the US District Attorney anyway. They will cite confusing language of the way it is written.

No worries.
Not unless OBAMA is elected and disarms everyone.

Confusing language = lawyer linguistics.

Obama is our next President of the United States...mark my words........maybe he'll straighten out this mess of an economy, too. We can only hope for the best in this situation.

The right to bare arms is a basic tenant of our Constitution, and I don't see too many Presidents messing with it over the years.

With workplace violence on the rise, this little tweak could cause some majorly dumb moves by disgruntled employees.

Therefore, forcing dorks like Mr. Dennis Thompson and Whimpy Withers to get bullet proof desks @ CCPS. Idiots like them most likely have CCPS Admin. employees who'll bring guns to work.

beetle, guns have been for sale to anyone without a verifiable felony or documented mental disorder. you don't own a firearm do you?

most of us voters want to know more about Obama and how he is gonna do anything about anything.

no one "forced" the Dorks to get bullet proof anything. they need no help to do stupid things.

LOL

#9 Beetlejuice- If Obama is anything like the last Democrat we are in for a rough ride. Gun laws under Clinton took a beating. You don't remember all the BS from 1992-2000?
You must be too young to remember hi capacity magazine bans, certain bans on ammo, folding stock bans, assault weapons bans and other assorted party favorites.
And to be honest you could still find ALL the banned items BUT you spent a premium for it. Magazines were 10 rounds instead of hi cap, so instead of buying the Glock 17 with the pre ban 17 round mag, you got 2 10 rounders.Or you moved up in caliber size , and got say a Glock 21 with one pre ban hi cap mag of 13 rounds or 2- 10 rounders. Was quite the clusterf**k.

Not much of a difference but Clinton had a field day with his hand in your gun cabinet and wallet if you enjoyed your weapons.

like most folks that know about and respect firearms,ive carried or owned one since i was 10 yoa,,,and when i started driving there was always one either in the glove box or in the back window if a p/u,,, but that was back in the day that i could park it in the middle of Bonita or as far east as i could get,at when i got back it would still be there,,,,in this situation,its a thin line between a businesses property rights and the publics rights of ownership ,,, some say that the business could be held responsible if a person retrieved a firearm from the vehicle, and shot someone while on that property,,,,,,, but also, if thats the case, wouldnt they < businesses> be responsible if attacked while going to their vehicle or even on the way home,and couldnt defend themselves? also, Legaleze shoud be outlawed,and plain American English used,,,,

Wild, Wild, West!. More guns is not the solution. Better trained and well equiped police force is needed. Crime prevention, education and economic stability are more effective. Guns don't pull the triger, people do.

my apologies for not typing this in the sentence,,,,

wouldnt they < businesses> be responsible if attacked while******** a customer/employee was******** going to their vehicle

#13 Posted by Naplesheart. I agree partly with your comment. A better trained and well equipped general public does wonders to the crime rate.
And FYI many times the police force can't always be there before or even during when bad things happen to good people, they come afterwards to write the reports, clean up the mess and fill the bodybags, Google a little town in Georgia called Kennesaw.
Gun ownership and knowledge plays right into your theory of crime prevention, education and economic stability . Google a little town in Georgia called Kennesaw.

I hope we don't endup like Mexico.

Jadip...I understand completely why yer gun cabinet costs went up a bit while Clinton was in. For that, I'm sorry.

But were yer cool guns and such taken away...EVER?

Nope. God Bless yer Constitutional Rights.

Lock and load and shoot, but do it responsibly.

If yer a workoholic wacko about to go postal...and if ya look up a bit of history on the word "postal" it will all become crystal clear as to why guns should stay at home.

Meanwhile, I know Obama will be the next President, because McCain is too old to live through this political race in the first place.

This law will never hold up in court. A person's right to bare arms ends when they enter private property if the property owner won't allow it. This was the Florida legislature's way of appeasing the "good ole boys". I'm sure they even realize it won't pass the legal litmus test.

I wouldn't have a problem with this if a mental exam was requied to get a license to carry. Same with the right to vote. Just too many nut cases and retards out there who misuse and abuse all these rights we are suppose to have.

What did the Chamber of Commerce do to protect the two women & one child in two separate cases on the East Coast awhile back that were abducted from a mall parking lot . Perhaps if these women had been armed the ending could have been different

All I can say is, BE CAREFUL. Many cops have accidentially shot at other plainclothes cops who had a gun in hand.

This is good because it increases accountability.
How's that?
Because if you mess with me maybe I will kill you.
Would you mess with a rattle snake?

Parnoia will destroy ya........
I don't carry a gun.
Ain't packin at Wal-Mart.
Don't feel all worried without one.

More worried about morons with one.

The NRA is the most dangerous lobby in America.

CutthratLiberal
At least you picked the right nick..I would advise you to do a bit of research of the crimes and accidental shootings that have been committed by liscensed gun owners and then compare that to the true morons that break the laws of our country. You might just have a bit more crediblity with your statments that you make. If you just wouldn't voice your opinion, no one would know exactly how stupid you really are! Thank God for the right to bear arms. I was a cop for 29 years and I know the probability of Law Enforcement getting to you in time of need. Law abiding citizens need to take responsiblity for themselves to a certain extent and stop depending on "big brother" to do everything for them. You go ahead and don't feel worried without one..that'll change if you ever really need one. Just leave my right to bear arms alone and possibly I could be there to bale you out of a bad situation God forbid if you ever need help!

Didn't Weyerhauser Corporation show the risk of trusting in 'don't ask don't tell'? Weyerhauser goons walked gun-sniffing dogs thru the employee lot, noted cars at which dogs stopped, and fired their owners - who were unaware of a 'no guns' policy.

Didn't a central Florida school district recently fire a respected educator who safely kept a legal firearm in their car?

What next? Might employers dictate the books you may keep in your car? Isn't everything from Kafka to The Bible to The Enquirer deemed 'offensive' by one crank group or another?

Can you think of any reason why the lawful contents of your car should be anyone's business but yours? Nor can I.

Why use hackneyed 'wild west' slogans? It's false, misleading, and moronic.

As for becoming like Mexico? Mexico doesn't trust citizens with firearms. Isn't that why Mexico is safe and corruption-free? Yeah. Right.

Respecting The Second and other Ammendments protects us from becoming like corrupt violent Mexico.

And why does a Chamber of Commerce think itself above State Law, not to mention the Bill of Rights? Who is it to decide what employees may or may not keep in their private cars?

Dr. Paul Vincent Zecchino
Manasota Key, Florida
01 July, 2008

"Dangerous and vulgar men...thrive in the
corruption of the courts. Where justice
can be purchased, animals grow fat, and
the common people despair. Then come the
Communistas."
- "A Deadly Shade of Gold"
c. 1965, John D. MacDonald

No problem with guns in the hands of level-headed people who really know how to use them. Even in the office.

Problem is that most people who write in to this newspaper think most other people are morons. Coupled with the fact that, by definition, half of all people have double-digit I.Q.'s (look it up), it might go to explain the article in the print edition of today's NDN stating that 60% of gun deaths in this country are suicides and accidental killings of family members. Did I read that right?

Very well said dixielee and Dr. Paul!!!
Amazing how you can screw up the liberals agenda with facts.

And as a business owner CANCEL MY CHAMBER MEMBERSHIP.

This poll is fixed, i just tried to vote and it said i already voted.
Secondly, If you were to think about bringing a gun to work and shoot up the place (prior to this 'gun at work') you would just do it.
Now, if you know i have a gun, which i carry everywhere, the odds are, you aren't going to.
If you're a bad guy who is thinking of mugging someone leaving work at night and there is a huge possibility that you will die, i think you would think twice.
Banning guns, means only bad guys have guns.

Anyone who doesn't like guns should place a large sign in the front window: "NO GUNS ON PREMESIS."
I'm sure illegal gun owners will obey the request.
I would like to see the 'plan' anti-gun advocates have for getting the illegal guns from gang-bangers and other street criminals!

To those business owners who do not want employees to be able to park in their parking lot w/a gun in their vehicle . . .

I would remind you that ANY customer, who has a concealed weapons permit can carry a gun into your parking lot, and in to your store!

So, what is the problem w/a trusted employee having a gun locked in their vehicle?

I see quite a few different things being said here:
One is people getting shot for taking parking spaces, that's just a joke. More people have guns than any of you think.
Another, points that workplace crime has increased. Don't you think that, if someone is going to go "postal" as someone suggested and there was a chance they wouldn't even make it through the door, they would think twice?
People that are using the words like "Ain't and Yer" when describing gun owners, are just uneducated.

I agree w/ Dixielee...love the last sentence!!

I'm about to have a baby and this law scares the daylights out of me. What if some mentally sane person, who had a bad day, decides to use their registered weapon on me because of something totally stupid. Like I didn't get over fast enough for them on 75. Do I have to carry a weapon now just to protect myself? Or constantly feel in danger because the person next to might use the gun they have in their car. I recall the North Naples Methodist Church employee who flashed a gun at someone during a road rage incident. Wouldn't you think he should be a good, sane person? God loving and all. Where are my rights to feel safe and not have to carry a weapon myself?

#9 and #18, it's our right to "bear" arms, not "bare". I don't recall seeing anything about sleeveless shirts in the Constitution. And #9 it's "tenet", not "tenant".

I know this because I learned all about the 2nd amendment when I obtained my CWP.

AND... to those of you narrow-minded individuals who don't know how to spell, you have a lot of nerve stereotyping a gun owner as someone who is undeducated or unsophisticated.

In fact, if you'd get your heads out of your rear ends you would probably be surprised at how many educated, white collar professionals have chosen to exercise their 2nd amendment right to BEAR arms. They just don't go around advertising it.

#9 Beet, As long as Obama keeps being see with Mrs. Bill Clinton, there is NO WAY he'll win.

this is the result of your gun culture:

270 million guns.....owned by 70 million people

31,000 gun deaths per year

suicides 55%

homicides 40%

accidental 3%

remaining 2% classified as legal shootings by police and others

there are also 200,000 non fatal shootings per year the majority resulting in hospital confinement

within these statistics there are 8 CHILDREN KILLED EVERY DAY of the year

in addition 30,000 guns a year go MISSING from dealers and gun clubs

source: Time Magazine from The centre of Disease Control June 2008

so the ordinary citizen needs 3.85 guns to protect themselfs for about 620 incidents per year of which the majority are police originated

jala06, unfortunately more people carry guns illegally than legally. It's the ones that don't have the permit and know how easy it is to lose your right and go to prison from taking the CWP course.
i remember this "I recall the North Naples Methodist Church employee who flashed a gun at someone during a road rage incident" i knew that guy and i am pretty sure he didn't have a permit. there was other things going on, more than him being angry

Cutthroat liberal,
If it helps you sleep at night, this is one gun owner who would never consider using his weapon to save you. Personal defense is just that, personal, and limited to myself and my loved ones. It's not worth it to risk the legal and potential civil liability that one can experience even with a completely justified shooting.

I do have it on excellent authority that anybody about to go postal in the workplace, will not concern themselves with whether or not their employer allows them to have a gun locked in the glove box, so your unreasonable fear (a.k.a. - paranoia) about "morons" with guns in their glovebox is not a problem you are ever likely to have to deal with.

oops........... "SEEN" not "see"

#35-It's uneducated, not undeducated.

jala06,

Would YOU try and kill someone because they didn't get over fast enough for you on 75? Maybe try and run them off the road with the two tons of metal you're in control of, just because you were having a bad day?

If not, why would you think a mentally sane person would use their gun on you, just because they have one? Guns do not have a magical ability to influence the minds of people, they're inanimate objects. You are in much greater danger of being hit by someone who treats their car as a rolling phone booth/restaurant/barroom.

Where is your right to feel safe? You don't have one.
It's a dangerous world out there, and it's been that way
long before humans took their first steps, and it will be that way until the end of time. That's just life.

#41 touche... typo duly noted.

Dear AARGGHHH and fellow posters -

US DOJ and FBI crime statistics tell the truth. Gun-haters don't. Gun haters say family members are 146 times more likely to die in a home with a gun. Where'd they get that number? Same place shonk lawyers get theirs - Thin Air.

Researchers found the 'family members' cited were very different from you and I - they're criminals.

Time Magazine claimed a 'gun victim' was killed for complaining to a merchant. In fact, 'victim' was a crackhead and 'merchant' was a drug dealer with a record and no gun rights.

Why won't the media level with us?

Is it really about guns? Why do they falsely claim the Second Ammendment is a 'collective' rather than individual right? Doesn't that void our rights altogether? The connivers behind gun-control pimp an agenda. It dates from the turn of the last century. It's not pretty.

Japanese can't own guns, yet Japan has the world's highest suicide rate. Yet more interesting, Americans of Japanese origin can own guns, yet they're more law abiding than Japanese nationals.

Hundreds of inconvenient truths prove, gun-haters's spook stories are false.

Dr. Paul Vincent Zecchino
Manasota Key, Florida
01 July, 2008

"No one would be allowed to
visit until they signed that
power of attorney."
"A Deadly Shade of Gold"
c. 1965, John D. MacDonald

I'm a 21 yr old female office worker, with 2 college degrees, a pistol in my car and a police grade taser in my handbag. I have been using weapons for years, and I am a very good shot.

Should I just lay down and be a victim instead??

PS -

Dear Jala06, why buy into lies pimped off by gun-haters and their media pals?

Guns don't turn 'Mentally sane' people suddenly violent. Isn't that a bit supersitious?

How can inanimate objects sway one's thoughts?

Many citizens stowe firearms in cars parked on company lots. So what? Florida Law now protects them from vindictive BigCorpseorate cry-babies.

Gun-haters' fear mongering is designed to suspend rational thought and gain panic-driven support for their twisted agenda.

The more you gather facts, the more you ignore gun-haters' hysterical whinings and pious bleatings, the more you clearly you see the truth.

Dr. Paul Vincent Zecchino
Manasota Key, Florida
01 July, 2008

Well someone has to represent the criminal element in this dialog so I guess it is incumbent upon me to do so...aHeM:

Please, all you gun tot'in weenies please put NRA stickers on your vehicles. it makes identifyng which vehicles have guns in them much easier and saves all those that don't have a gun in their car from having it broken into.

Please, put a sign in the front window of your home that says something really stoOpid like "the hell with the dog, beware of the owner", you know the one with the six-gun pointed at you.

And please, when out at the mall wear your NRA hats, the ones with the scrambled eggs on the visor, so you can be identified easily and followed to your vehicle for fast and efficient robbing.

And remember this, just cause the bad guys are trying to steal your guns that doesn't mean they didn't bring any, in fact, they most likely did.

And when they break in your house at 3:00AM and you're asleep, they're already pumped with adreniline and they already have decided what they're gonna do if you appear waving a gun around.

So please, be courteos, make yourself an easy target and save your non-gun tot'in neighbors.

Isn't trusting Time Magazine and the Centers for Disease Control to tell the truth about firearms like hiring Karl Marx as a business advisor?

#44, above, addresses Time's utter lack credibility on the issue.

During the 90s, CDC lost all credibility when cynical pols pressured them into 'researching the disease of gun violence'. With straight face CDC claimed, 'bullets are the vector which spreads the disease of gun violence.' Yeah. Right.

Congress soon put a stop to this dangerous inanity. CDC has yet to regain credibility.

Believe DOJ and FBI stats. Every other public and private entity derives its figures from them.

See for yourself. Florida now protects those with guns in their cars. Last week, the Supremes struck down DC's absurd gun ban.

Heard of any 'wild west' shootouts lately? Seen any maniacs onna hiway, flashing guns? Me neither.

Forget hysteria. Think. Your influence counts. Use it.

Dr. Paul Vincent Zecchino
Manasota Key, Florida
01 July, 2008

you know, i looked at NDN.COM and saw that there were 53 comments at the time i wrote this and what # am i?

Canuck and PVZ (#37 & #47)

Like I said.. I have no problems with guns... and as far as the suicides and family members and children killed, I just attribute it to the Law of Natural Selection.

No problem.

Nice to see that Dr. Zuchini is back in the hunt!
Not a gun person myself but I think this may force certain bad employers to behave themselves and at least try to act like regular people.

More and more each day they are coming out with other ways to defend yourself in a non-lethal manner. I would personally feel safer knowing that I did not have to "take" a life to "save" a life.

This could be fun. But, I’m not sure what kind of gun to get.

I was thinking of an Uzi – but then I remembered when President Reagan got shot, that guy only had a .22 and all of the highly trained Secret Service guys had Uzi’s and Hinckley still shot four people and the Secret Service didn’t even get one shot off.

Soooo, maybe a .22 is better than an Uzi. But then I was watching a WWII movie and a bazooka blew up a tank. Wow, a bazooka could be cool!

Just wait till that jerk Lenny at work sees me point a bazooka at him and say, “Well Lenny, what were you saying at the meeting yesterday about me filling out the HK-111 form when I should have used the HK-115?” Ha, that’ll be great.

And then I’ll blow up an SUV just to show him I mean business (and to help the environment). Then, I’ll just laugh and say, “Just kidding Lenny, how about a coffee and doughnut?”

Man, this law is going to be great.

AARGGHHH.........and will you say the same thing when it happens in your family????

That was dumb Wally
Canuck,
Guns are a great/huge responsibility and anyone who leaves one laying all but deserves what they get. It is just a shame that an innocent person is sometimes the victim.
As soon as my child is old enough to hold a gun i will show him what they can do and how dangerous they are. Then i will show him that they are locked up in my safe, that only i know the combo to. That's what a parents do, educate their children. My dad showed me his gun, when i was under 10 and did the same with me. It's all about respect. People who don't know, are just ignorant and seek knowledge on their own through trial and error. It's our job to teach people about firearms and how to respect them.
i have my house gun, that only i know where it is and for someone to find it, they would have to tear, just about, my whole house apart.
Trust me if someone wants to kill you, they don't need a gun and it wouldn't matter if it were in their car, at their home or sitting right next to them.

What has really changed? The bad guys are always going to have illegal weapons obtained through illegal means and the law abiding citizens that have a permit to carry a concealed weapon will continue to do so, and how would you know if they have it in their car while patroning your establishment anyway. This change in no way has made me all of a sudden decide to run out and purchase a handgun and I doubt anyone else.

"Gun-haters' fear mongering is designed to suspend rational thought and gain panic-driven support for their twisted agenda."

This thread proves that beyond the shadow of a doubt.

Anyone that worried about being a victim of violence from a legally carried gun should just stay home.

NeezDutz.....unfortunately not everyone who owns a gun is as dilligent as you claim to be....while illegal guns do account for many deaths...many of them are stolen from legal gun owners..........also the majority of shooting massacres are committed with legal guns.....homicide rates tend to be related to legal firearm ownership...and then there is the children...how many times do we have to hear a child found a gun under the bed or the mattress and shot himself or someone else...I know that I am "spitting in the wind" but it amazes me that 70 million people need 270 million guns to protect themselves from such a small number of incidents that required shooting

"My dad showed me his gun, when i was under 10..." -NeezDuts

If that doesn't make you chuckle, you're doomed.

I guess we finally understand the Freudian impulse behind Neez's not-so-discrete, transposed user name.

Interesting points about NRA stickers as beacons to weapons available for steal.

Same is true for just about anything. Need bikes, ski equipment, golf clubs? Follow home a car with corresponding bumper stickers or theme license plates.

Why drivers feel the need to advertise on their car their hobbies, likes, dislikes, affiliations, is beyond me. Are some folks that insecure or devoid of legitimate self-expression that they need to inform an anonymous tailgating soccer mom how they protect wild dolphins, support gay rights or attend(ed) the University of Florida?

Seriously.

I know, it's pride. It's being proud of one's beliefs and achievements. That's why I advertise my love for polo on the back of my Volvo. Right under the Amherst alumnus sticker.

But, remember that pride is one of the seven deadly sins. It's the worst of the sins.

From Wikipedia, "In almost every list pride (or hubris or vanity) is considered the original and most serious of the seven deadly sins, and indeed the ultimate source from which the others arise. It is identified as a desire to be more important or attractive than others, failing to give compliments to others though they may be deserving of them,[citation needed] and excessive love of self (especially holding self out of proper position toward God)."

Great, so if some loser works at a school or daycare center it is perfectly okay for him to bring a gun as long as he leaves it in his car. What happens when he has a bad day or gets fired? Then the nut job has a freaking gun in his car!!

We need tougher gun control laws. We should not make it easier for them to get one!!

I see this as a bad law. Simply because it infringes on a private business owners right to control what is allowed or not allowed on their property.

While I can not be swerved from the belief that all cititzens have the right to bear arms I also believe that if I own a business and you come on my property you should follow my rules.

If a business says you have to submit to a body cavity search before being allowed on the premises then you either submit to it or do business elsewhere.

By the same token one should also be allowed to carry arms in all public buildings or property. By "public" I mean all buildings owned or leased by any government agency.

I don't see any connection to Senator Obama. Despite what Laura Ingrim tells you, he's not going to take away your guns.

After all, he knows how some people cling to them. It could never work.

But thanks for the 'ugly' joke. I haven't heard that one since fourth grade.

Maybe this is why we need gun control. To prevent elementary-school educated yokels like Justiss from pretending he's Charles Bronson. The world needs fewer angry, poor white men convinced the Democrats will take their stuff, eat their children and send them to toil in the wheat fields -- and that at any moment a black man will beat down the door demanding a daughter to rape, so vote for Bush because although he'll shred the bill of rights, he'll leave the 2nd untouched, allowing you to keep an uzi at the ready at all times.

Myself included, throughout the 'tire of my life, besides soldiers and veterans, I've never known one person who has ever needed a gun for "protection." No incidents. That's good enough odds for me.

I guess I'm not that scared. Then again, I don't watch Fox News.

AAALLLLRRRRIIIGGHHHTTTT!

I am back. Not working at WalMart Justiss. Own an environmental business that does quite well. No, not landscaping. And not lazy, or uneducated.

#24 DixieLee, thanks for thinking of protecting me if needed. Nice to know. I would do the same if it ever came up. Trust me though, no cowering here.

#39 mthalo, Honey, try reading the post I wrote first. You assume I am paranoid, when in fact I stated I was not. The people paranoid of what goes on around them, and then choose to carry a gun, is my reference.

Listen, choosing to keep a gun or not is a very important decision. I choose not to. I believe that there is a danger that something could happen, kids for instance, so I choose to abstain.

I have no problem with responsible gun ownership, but the fact is there are way too many of them in the ole USA. I believe the NRA has something to do with that. That's all.

As for my using slang like "ain't", why would anyone assume I was alluding to gun owners. Just usin the language. Are some gun owners afraid stereotypes could be true?

As for Paul Zecchio, WWWHHHUUUTTT?
Dude, sometimes I think you are a bit out there.....

By the way, this law is unconstitutional, so all this talk is moot....

"homicide rates tend to be related to legal firearm ownership"

Sorry Canuck, John Lott's study shows the opposite. But let's get personal -- if you had a gun would you go on a killing rampage? If not, where do you get of implying the rest of us will? And if so, you should have yourself committed rather than telling the rest of us how to live our lives. It's a freedom thing, something you Canadians wouldn't understand.

#37, God bless AMERICA.

"I have no problem with responsible gun ownership, but the fact is there are way too many of them in the ole USA. "

But if most of those are held by responsible people, how could there be too many?

"I believe the NRA has something to do with that. "

Liberals believe all kinds of crap. Of course, you have nothing to support that belief.

I own guns, my kids have had their own guns (hunting)from the time they were 9. It's all about being responsible and respecting the gun. Taking safety courses is a must. Teaching kids about guns, safety etc. is very, very important.

"My dad showed me his gun, when i was under 10..." -NeezDuts
If that doesn't make you chuckle, you're doomed.-ecoterror.
Ignorance is the lack of education, you teach your children so they don't learn from (something as dangerous as firearms) their ignorant friends or by just "Finding" the gun and teaching themselves by pulling the trigger.
Sorry that you wouldn't teach your own children as i was taught and as i will teach my children how to respect a firearm. I will avoid such an accident because my child will be educated.
Canuck your statement about "massacres are committed with legal guns" is very far off base. Ask the people that are living in places where drive by shootings are a daily activity, if those gun owners are legal.
Name the massacres for me, and i bet it is just a handful

McFein...for once in your life try to prove your point without posting an ultra right wing bias....John Lott is an advocate for concealed weapons and would probably put a gun in every man,woman and child's hand
but so like you to take that word over your own goverment statistics which are repeated by every survey posted....
the statistcs speak for themselves....I did not make them up
also so like you to insult...like it or not we have as many freedoms as you if not more but then if its not right wing you would not recognize it
better you should go back into your cave and count your money with your guns by your side
absolutely repugnent with your remarks

NeezDutz...to name a few..Columbine and Virginia Tech...both with "legal" weapons.......and post offices so numerous to mention come to mind....I guess I could google and get several more

That's 2, Columbine the child was under age, technically illegal.
Virginia Tech killer bought his gun illegally, no background check was done on him, from what i understand.
Also, guns weren't allowed on either of the campus anyway. so they were breaking the law. These people wanted to kill someone no matter what and where they bought the guns.

There were about 6 notable post office shootings in 22 years
next argument please
i carry a gun with me 90% of the time and only pulled it out once while driving because there were some punks driving (three cars) around me closing me in slamming on their breaks and trying to run me off the road. if i were to stop, because they ran me off the road, what am i, one person, to do?
even if i called the police, crime would be over

"Guns don't kill..people do" I could kill you with a baseball bat. The 2nd amendment is the law of the land since the beginning..get over it and move on..cautiously.

Canuck,
While I'm also guilty of using statistics for any of my arguments on the gun control issue it just occurred to me the question of how valid some of the numbers are.

Like if you had x number of gun homicides does that tell you where the homicides where committed and under what conditions? What if the majority of those homicides happened in areas with strict gun regulations and high crime activity such as gang, drug, mafia, etc. It would bring up several questions like were the victims also armed or not, the type of shootings that occurred, and the location of the shootings.

Look at the shooting massacres; where do they normally take place? Usually some public or business area that is essentially gun-free.

Some of these homicides, how many were the result of premeditated murder and how many were not? Like how many abused wives shot their husbands after or during the last beating they received?

Obviously we're not working with an equal playing field in many respects. Heck, we can't even get accurate numbers on gun ownership because there's folks out there who do have guns that aren't registered, who do carry without a permit, but won't divulge such information. We got estimates on how many times a gun is used to prevent a crime, but how much of such use goes unreported?

Scrambled eggs on a visor, to my knowledge, means nothing in civilian wear. For the military it denotes an officer.

UK handgun deaths in 2006... 41

2006 gun deaths in the US.... 31,000+

Seven children will be shot to death in the next hour by handguns in the US.

The US will have that roughly the same number of handgun deaths in the next month that all of Western Europe, Japan and Korea (the developed countries) will have in the next decade.

Gee NeezDutz.....I don't know where to begin...I give you that the four guns used at Columbine were obtained by "straw market" but the fact they were so readily available to Harris...age 18 and Klebold...age 17 speaks to your loose gun culture
you are wrong on the Virginia Tech killer...he bought both his guns at a Wisconsin gun dealer AFTER UNDERGOING A POLICE CHECK
in addition to your 22 postal massacres for which they coined the phrase "going postal" there were 40 workplace massacres in the past 20 years that registered more than 5 deaths per incident
following are just a few gun massacre incident from a few days in February 2008:

Saturday, February 1: 15-year old honor student shoots and kills parents and two brothers in Baltimore suburb;
~Saturday, February 1: Gunman shoots and kills five women in suburban Chicago clothing store;
~Sunday, February 2: Gunman shoots and kills three at suburban Washington, DC pizzeria after argument over Super Bowl;
~Thursday, February 7: Gunman shoots and kills police officer, three others in fiery Los Angeles stand-off;
~Thursday, February 7: Disgruntled citizen shoots and kills two police officers, three others in rampage during Missouri city council meeting; and
~Friday, February 8: Nursing student shoots and kills two other students and self at Louisiana college.

then there is the Wendy' massacre in 2000..4 killed
Omaha mall...6 killed
Paducah Kentucky high school
Pearl Miss. high scholl

but then again I think I made my point that guns are so readily available in your country

#76
its more accurate to say that so many people will be killed by People with handguns,,, would you by chance have the stats on how many people in the US were killed with motor vehicles as opposed to those same countries you mentioned ?,,
if not thats ok, i say ,that because so many people Are killed with motor vehicles, that we should ban them,,at least They werent included in the Constitution,or any amendments,,,,

Illiar.....the stats I used were from the Centre of Disease Control who register these stats
the stats were used to show the result of a gun culture that has 270 million guns duly legal with 70 million of its citizens...I don't think any of the stats except homicides cover any illegal guns but nevertheless guns are readily available to almost anyone in your society and to those who cannot get one legally they steal them from the legal owners...because they have them in their homes or cars

Post #79
"guns are readily available to almost anyone in your society and to those who cannot get one legally they steal them from the legal owners"

Canuck, do you really believe that individuals that cannot attain a firearm legally resort to stealing as a means to have a gun? The type of people that you are decribing are what we call CRIMINALS, and they typically avoid:

1. Walking into a gun store where they are on camera purchasing a firearm

2. Subject themselves to a Federal background check, which documents the intent to purchase a firearm

3. Hand their officially issued identification card over to the shop owner to fill out the necessary paperwork

Criminals don't do these things because they are criminals and wouldn't want a handgun they are going to use in the commission of a crime linked back to them.

Gun control laws/policies only affect law abiding citizens, not the criminal element. It seems that victims of mass shootings and their families always jump at the oppoutunity to denounce guns, and label them evil....how about holding the person that fired seven bullets into your body personally accountable! Banning guns does not stop massacares, look at Japan where the new trend is mass stabbings...and Japan is actually considering banning hunting knives, as if they are the only type of knive that is capable of puncturing your skin as some nut pushes it into person after person at the local busy train station.

I could go on, and on but what I am simply stating is that banning guns does absolutely nothing for reducing crime, and allowing law-abiding citizens access to a firearm does nothing to increase crime. So if you want to have a gun...good for you, and if you chose not to have one..FINE but you should be comforted by the fact that you still have choices in the Country. Enjoy it, many others around the world will never enjoy this luxury.

post #80 proves my point exactly...and why the US is known as a gun society...if 70 million people did not have 270 million guns that are so readily available at gun shops...flea markets...then your criminals would not have such a source of supply...I have not advocated gun control as guns are so much of your culture but allowing them to be taken to the workplace is just asking for more massacres.....
perhaps a tighter control on who can sell and who can buy would be a start...
as for having choices....most countries have choices...but if you refer to owning a gun as a luxury I don't think the families of the 31,000 killed annually would think it a luxury

Dear mthalo & fellow posters-

Agree. Those who fear firearms should stay home.

Notice how gun-haters use emotional moralistic arguments and insults? Isn't it telling that gun-rights advocates stick to facts and logic?

Now that guns are banned, Londonistan is awash in knifings. Bobbies, all armed, conduct knife-checks. Do police state tactics stop cellphone-knifings? No. A gun-control success story!

Canada's gun-ban is going swimmingly, isn't it? Canada overreacted to a 'mass murder' and banned guns. But Canada is largely rural. Rural Canadians ignored the ban. Result? Canadians ignore a law which cops won't enforce. A gun-control 'success' story!

Last week's Supreme Court ruling against the DC gun ban - what, no 'wild-west mass murders'? - wasn't about guns. It was about the lie that the Second Ammendment is a 'collective', not an individual right. The ruling, as with Florida's law, protects many rights. Do people realize that? Wny not?

Remember how parents and elders taught that that we can have liberty or security, not both? Didn't they say liberty meant risk but security came only with a lethal police state?

Why do so many want security, not liberty? Do they know what's at stake?

Dr. Paul Vincent Zecchino
Manasota Key, Florida
01 July, 2008

"Those who trade liberty for a
bit of security deserve neither."
- Benjamin Franklin

Paul Zech is an idiot.
Just because some of us believe there are too many guns, that does not make us gun-haters. Nor am I afraid of guns.
Ever been to Wash DC? Trust me, they could use some help getting guns off the streets.

Also, mefein states to Canuck, who is Canadian, that he wouldn't know about freedom. A stupid statement if ever there was one. Yea Fein, like Canada is communist China. Read a book.

Want to learn something? Check post #67 by Gutta1.
Click his name, and read the posts from this 20 year old.
Nuff said. Case rests.

re post #86.....for a so called professional he sure is provincial...check the stats on gun deaths per thousand and you will come to realize how good Canada's gun policies are........now if we can just find a way to more effectively stop the Americans from smuggling guns into Canada

Canuck,
I'm not questioning you, I was merely questioning the stats and the studies.

I don't believe the problem we have is guns or the number of them. It's in part we were are taught about them and other values in our society.

I've lived in rural areas and urban areas. In rural areas, guns are more visible, and people more open about them in comparison to city dwellers. And it seems that per capita there is less crime and a big difference about the type of crime in rural areas than in cities and towns. That seems to be one aspect of gun ownership that many studies have ignored.

Also ignored frequently is how gun-related crimes are treated in the legal system verses white collar crimes and other offenses that don't involve guns. One study claimed that the average prison time spent for murder was 7 to 10 years with some killers getting out in as little as five years. One thing that tells me is that the value of human life is cheap.

One time I got called for jury duty in a case of a young male who went on a violent rampage one night. He had 14 charges against him. There were other charges initially but some of those had been dropped. Basically he had threatened to kill several people with a gun. He pistol whipped one, beat another, beat a dog to death, stole a car, resisted arrest, and did some damage at the police station.

I had considered the use of a gun as an important factor in the case, but many potential jury members and legal counsel appear to regard it as trivial.

Since we're comparing nations, and tossing stats....

U.K,
Serious violent crime rates from 1997 to 2002 averaged 29% higher than 1996; robbery was 24% higher; murders 27% higher.

According to the BBC News, handgun crime in the United Kingdom rose by 40% in the two years after it passed its gun ban in 1997. Before the law, armed robberies had fallen by 50% from 1993 to 1997.

According to a United Nations study, British citizens are more likely to become a victim of crime than are people in the United States. The 2000 report shows that the crime rate in England is higher than the crime rates of 16 other industrialized nations, including the United States

In 1957, the murder rate in the USA was 4.0 per 100k, and reached a peak of 10.2 per 100k in 1980. (Source: Crime in the United States, 2007, FBI, Uniform Crime Reports.)

While gun control advocates claim the problem is easy access to guns, the facts are different.
In 1957, it was much, much easier to purchase a gun than it is today. One could obtain any rifle or pistol via mail order, without a background check, and have it shipped directly.

It's pretty clear that "easy access" to guns is not the real problem.

Wow lots have happened since i was gone. Sorry i have a job and a family.
Thank You Mthalo
Canuck i see you have good points but, (besides the virginia tech shooting) what were the motives behind the shooting and where did the guns come from????
there are approx. 30,000, to be on the safe side,including how many people are killed with illegally owned guns out of 301,139,947 living here...that's .010%...considering that most are illegal guns, you could decrease that percentage for the legally obtained guns

Take automobiles...you have them in Canada, I think.
Over 42,000 people were killed in 2006 by motor vehicles, though a decline from 2005 still a boat load. There are approx. if you use the same about amount people living in the USA as above thats .014%
People owning guns legally don't kill people...people kill people
i have owned a gun, along with every friend of mine and none of us (Except for my military friends and family) have ever killed anyone

#62 - if you read the article, it says that schools are excluded from this!

"Schools, prisons and sensitive security sites are exempt from the law."

...get your facts right...and by the way...I work for the schools, and im not a loser...

"but so like you to take that word over your own goverment statistics which are repeated by every survey posted...."

Canuck, I use John Lott's stats because his is the definitive study. He used data from the whole country, not just some small area. Every other "study" used a data set orders of magnitude smaller than his. In some cases, like the debunked Kellerman study, the conclusion were either wrong or misstated.

If you don't like Lott's conclusions, prove where his methodology or data are wrong. Otherwise shut up.

"the statistcs speak for themselves....I did not make them up"

And Lott did. Prove it.

"absolutely repugnent [sic] with your remarks"

Shows how I feel about the enemies of freedom.

"they steal them from the legal owners...because they have them in their homes or cars"

So you're into "blame the victim," eh, Canuck. You're the kind who believes the raped woman deserved it.

I prefer to blame the thief for the theft, but, hey, that's just me.